Problems using SH10 remote chime as a doorbell

[Lennart]

Hi all,

As a solution to the "doorbell problem", I opted for the following components:

- one Xanura SAX15 potential free actor/interface
- three SH10 X10 remote chimes

One can connect the SAX15 to the existing doorbell circuit and plug the SH10's (one or more) into any power outlet, wherever the doorbell should be audible. Basically, the SAX15 sends a [unitcode] ON over the powerline if the doorbell button is pressed and sends a [unitcode] OFF when the doorbell button is released. The SH10's with unitcode [unitcode] sound their chime when they receive the [unitcode] ON command.

Benefits of this solution:

- Existing circuit stays, so there'll always be a working doorbell.
- Wired communication between actor and doorbell with no possible interference from neighbors (if X10 filters are installed, that is
- Additional doorbell(s) will work, independent of a PC with home automation software being switched on.
- If switched on, home automation software can easily register the doorbell event.

Of course there are many other solutions, such as the ones mentioned in http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=340, but I prefered the PC independent, wired approach.

So far, so good. However...

The SH10 turns out to be quite a strange device. It is not only a remote chime, but also a siren for X10 alarm systems. The manual is not very clear on the workings of this device (see http://www.waakzaamwonen.nl/catalog/red ... 2Fsh10.pdf), but what I found out is that the first time an SH10 receives an ON command, it sounds a doorbell sound (rather loud, but hey, some PUR-foam should solve that .

However, if it receives another ON command, it sounds its siren (100 dB - which is very loud any very unpleasant) for about 10 seconds! Unless you first send it an OFF command. In that case, it will again sound its doorbell sound on the next ON command.

Because the SAX15 sends both an ON and OFF command, this theoretically shouldn't pose a problem. But what currently happens, is that sometimes one or more of the SH10's don't receive or register the [unitcode] OFF command sent by the SAX15 and will sound their siren when the doorbell is pressed a second or third time (as often happens when people become impatient - such as the TPG postmen .

I can assure you, this is not a comforting situation and it does not help to increase the acceptance of home automation within my house .

I don't think it has to do with interference/noise on the powerline. I have a three phase installation with filters (Xanura SFX40) on every phase and an active coupler/repeater (Xanura FKX) in place, as well as AFX2 filters to cut off all "heavy machinery" such as the dishwasher, laserprinter, etc. Furthermore, the CTX35 picks up the signals from the SAX15 without any problems.

I rather think it's some kind of timing problem within the SH10 that causes it to not register the OFF command? Or could it have to do with the fact that I'm using a three phase installation? The SH10 manual specifically states that the SH10 should be on the same phase as the actor. That's not the case in my house for all SH10's, but then again, also the SH10 that is on the same phase as the SAX15 sometimes sounds its siren. Or could the FKX repeater be the problem? Maybe it transmits the ON command twice as part of the repeater function?

Anyway, what I'd like to know: is the SH10 just one of those X10 devices to stay away from? Or could it work in my setup? Is it possible to disable the siren?

An alternative would be the SC546 X10 chime (only!) module, but as far as I know this device is not available on the European (230V) market.

Another thing I noticed is that if you press the doorbell for only a very short time, the SAX15 only seems to send a [unitcode] OFF command (at least that is what my CTX35 says) and thus only the original doorbell will sound (as no SH10 will respond), but that at least doesn't scare the hell out of me every time somebody rings the doorbell .

Thanks in advance for any suugestions you may have! If I can't find a solution, I'm afraid I'll have to return all SH10's... (The SAX15 will stay though.)

Best wishes,

Lennart

[Bwired]

Hi Lennart,

First of all is that X10 is not 100% guaranteed that the signal is received. I think all the members on this board agree on that.
So stay away of those devices when you use them as a doorbell
BTW my system is not depending on my domotica system or PC. In fact the original doorbell is still function very good. What I do is grab the push signal from the line and turn it in a extra X10 signal on the powerline. With this signal (normally it will be send, also depending on the quality of your powerline) I can do all kinds of extra things like
log the event in the database
grab some video of the doorcamera
Send an extra bell signal to the two KAKU wireless doorbells.

So if all the additional domotica does not work, my bell is still ringing!
You also need the know that a normal doorbell pusher is not the optimal way to trigger a Xanura or other X10 module. Because when give the doorbell just a small push, you will hear the bell (probably not loud) but the X10 module will not react on it.
It's far better to put a small relay in between.
Regards Pieter

[Lennart]

Hi Pieter,

Sure, X10 is not completely reliable, but that is also the case for wireless transmissions such as Klik-Aan-Klik-Uit (KAKU): sometimes it just may fail. But what wonders me is that the designers of the SH10 seemed to ignore this fact and combined the two functions (chime and siren) in such a way that only in the case that the transmission is completely reliable, the device will work properly (i.e. not sound an alarm when a chime is expected and vice versa). Redundant ON commands, for instance, in this case are not ignored but change the operation of the device...

In my case, the original doorbell is also still present, so if the SH10's don't work I still have the original doorbell circuit. But what I would like to have is additional doorbells around the house that are also independent of the home automation pc / software and don't require me to run additional wires throughout the house or completely replace the original circuit (including transformer), while still using the SAX15 to have the doorbell event being registered in Homeseer.

What I could probably do, is install another SAX15, have it respond to the ON command of the first SAX15, close its internal potential free relay contact and connect the KAKU CDB-6500BC build-in transmitter to this contact. So a doorbell button press will sound the original doorbell, will be translated into an X10 command by the first SAX15 and then will be translated into a wireless KAKU signal by the second SAX15 and KAKU transmitter. All of this without any home automation pc / software being operational. This solution would still have the benefits mentioned in my original posting (except for potential interference from neighbors also using KAKU) and would ring the additional doorbells, but it does seem to be quite involved.

As far as your "short doorbell press" remark is concerned: this is what I also noticed with the SAX15. It does respond to short doorbell presses but only seems to send an OFF command. Could you explain your relay solution a little bit more? How would it solve the problem? What extra equipment is required? This problem would need to be solved for the described "original doorbell circuit -> X10 -> KAKU" solution to work.

Thanks!

Lennart

[Bwired]

Hi Lennart,
As I read your finding about the SH10, it's not that gooda product. If the manufacturer did a proper test he would have the same results as you did! You solution with a second SAX15 could work but it's very expensive, and I would think: dawn this can not be the case and it's not healthy to use so many equipment just for the bell. I did not tested my setting already fully but first findings are telling me that if my Kenwei Doorbell cam is pushed normally the relay is triggered and makes a full contact for less then a second, so a two times very fast pushing the bell is no option because the relay is still on. I did not make any special arrangement for that, I guess a small capacitor (elco) is loaded and keeps the relay on. And the last option is what I think you should do.
Again I still need to implement my doorbell cam and only then I really know it works
btw: Did you test the exact bell circuit which is explained in the Xanura manual of the SAX15.
Pieter

[Lennart]

Hi Pieter,

Thanks for your comment! I used the exact doorbell circuit schematics that are on page 11/12 of the Xanura SAX15 manual, so in theory it should work. I agree with you that 2 SAX15's and some additional KAKU hardware would be too much and I would still need the relay and capacitor suggested by you.

So what I'm currently thinking about, is using a Xanura AIX to send an X10 command if someone presses the doorbell (the AIX still sends a command if the doorbell button is pressed only momentarily). The command may be alternately ON and OFF (the AIX doesn't send 2 commands - ON and OFF, such as the SAX15), but Homeseer will see it anyway and can be configured to show the doorbell event correctly, regardless of what command it receives exactly. The doorbell transformer will then be out of the doorbell circuit (losing the original doorbell) and be replaced by the KAKU CDB-6500BC build in transmitter, which will be connected in series to the doorbell button and the Xanura AIX. The intention is that pressing the doorbell will send an X10 command (either ON or OFF) and a KAKU signal. I will then install a number (say 3) of KAKU doorbells around the house.

Hardware required would be: 1 AIX, 1 KAKU CDB-6500BC, 2 additional KAKU doorbells, instead of: 2 SAX15, 1 doorbell transformer, 3 SH10, 1 relay + capacitor.

This solution would still have the benefit of being independent of home automation software being operational.

What do you think? Could this work? I'm especially interested in knowing whether the in series connection of the Xanura AIX and KAKU CDB-6500BC should work (all of these are potential free, right?)...

Thanks,

Lennart

[Lennart]

Ok, I have tried the option with Xanura in combination with a KAKU CDB-6500BC build-in transmitter. Instead of a Xanura AIX I used the original SAX15, as the KAKU build-in transmitter uses 12V DC (AIX can handle up to 5V; SAX15 is for 5-24V). I put the SAX15 and build-in transmitter in series with the original doorbell push button. I disconnected the doorbell transformer.

It now works like a charm! Pushing the doorbell now transmits a KAKU signal, as well as an X10 signal. The KAKU signal is picked up by several KAKU doorbells around the house. Only complaint is that the SAX15 only sends an OFF command if the doorbell is pressed momentarily, but that is not a real problem for using the event in Homeseer (a relay as Pieter suggested would solve this).

So, the doorbell is now independent from home automation software, using the original push button, but can still be picked up (even in two different ways, X10 and KAKU .

I'll return the SH10 devices as these are flawed by design.

Best wishes,

Lennart

[Bwired]

Hi Lennart,
Good to know that this is working, but still not perfect because the On command is sometimes not send. But as you told you can handle that in the Homeseer event. When I start with my Doorbell setting again I will report these finding as well. Good that you send the Marmitek SH10 back
Pieter

[a3b]

To prevent the unwanted SH10 behaviour, is it possible to have the ON-OFF sequence triggered by a CIX in stead of a SM10 or SAX15 directly ?
In that way, I could send multiple OFF signals, to be sure at least one of them comes through.

[Peterpc]

Marmitek does not have a SH10

[a3b]

So... ?

[Peterpc]

You can use the Marmitek UM7206. It has an build in buzzer and a switch:
Universal switch module. Switches 24V DC with power up to 5A. Built-in buzzer can be switched off. Can be installed for pulse or continuous contact. Controllable from a distance with the Marmitek X-10 commands On/Off. Controllable by hand with pushbuttons on the module itself.
http://www.marmitek.com/en/catalogus/pr ... product=27