Home Automation Domotica Forum Europe, Bwired Forum

JayBee wrote:Maybe if we all use our twitterscript to ask Plugwise for an explanation (let's say every 10 minutes) they will react faster...

Begging for a reaction doesn't make sense. As far as I'm concerned, Plugwise is basically saying: "We're not interested in our existing customer base, and definitely not interested in early adapters". All marketing professionals are voicing over and over again that companies can only survive when interacting closely with their customers. Plugwise did initially do a good job, but they seem to have lost interest.

Hi all, let me start with

Happy new year to you all!

I was notified that there were some questions on this forum, and you all hope I can answer this. Let me try
Yes, already in 2011 some parts of the Source software have been changed. Especially because the gap between the professional (Source Pro, €995,-) was to big.
We noticed more and more residential users preferred to have some features who were only available in the Pro version, and we wanted to avoid them purchasing the more expensive pro version.
In the same time we made our Home Basic cheaper, to made the product more available for more users. So we lowered the price by decreasing features.
The Source (basic) is a free to use Software, and you can add features (and pay for them off course) as you want. So at the end if you purchase them all, you will find out you have the full Pro version.
I hope till now everybody understand, and agree I hope...

Off course the current users (and especially the domotica forum users ) suppose to keep want they have. Unlike other software manufacturers we will not charge our customers for something they used to have already.
Only for new users (registered after 2011) this new structure is effective.

So what (should) happen when a current user (2011 or before) updates their Source.
When you update the Source it will connect to our update server and checks the registration date. During this check the Source receives the appropriate features automatically for unlimited in time.
For the 2011 and before users it mean you need to receive the features (Data Export button, Webserver free(limited) and more than 25 modules (with one network up to 64) unlimited (in black) for free automatically.
In some cases we have seen this is not working as expected. I am not sure if this related to local firewall settings or a technical bug, but in these cases the helpdesk is flexible and will support with manually activating these features.
So if this is the case in your situation, please send a mail to helpdesk@plugwise.com or call 0252-433076. I am sure they will help you quickly. B.t.w. you need to supply them your Source license key, otherwise it's impossible to activate the features. And as you all understand, the Source and Source update needs to have unblocked internet access.

I hope I made clear what the procedure of Plugwise is in regards of this is, and thanks for all the support and trust in Plugwise for all these years already.

Hi Reinder,

Okay, This is relatively good News for long term users.

But I'm afraid new users will not be that happy or even reluctant to start with Plugwise. The Plugwise hardware components are not the most cheapest in the world and features as webserver, event scripting etc., are very much needed especially when you want to integrate with other platforms like HomeSeer, Vera etc...

In that case one have to pay hundreds of euro's extra. If I were a new user, looking for this kind of solutions, I would look at other products first.

On the other hand, as a long term user and HomeSeer integration developer, I have to admit that the PlugWise products are very stable and reliable. Support is sometimes very fast and good, but sometimes there is no response at all for weeks.....

Take my opinion as positive feedback for the future...

Thanks,

Rien

Thanks for the explanation. Im very happy I keep the 'tyres' of my car.

On the other hand I agree with RdP that this might discourage new customers. But I do think this only affects the heavy users, like us. Not the 'normal users' which are happy with an out of the box app.

helpdesk, has fixed my licence options,...i can use source again as i use to do

Thanks for the positive feedback RdP, and happy to hear Harry, your issue has been fixed.
B.t.w. RdP and Phaeton, heavy users like us find ways to activate license features without paying for it at all

That's indeed clarifying things but the pricing seems not that good.

Reinder mentions SourcePro is 995euro, but options are 300euro for lifetime and I count many of those;
24-250modules, 5min interval, webserver, event scripting, extended scripting, alerts + lower priced data export
that's a total of 1920euro.

Now I wonder which modules were not included into (the old) SourcePro.
For me wanting 2 extensions I can say it's not going to happen, 600euro can get me many other things.

Last tuesday i received a mail from Plugwise with a new (?) code, that unlocks the Webserver, data export and the 25-250 nodes for life!!

There are two main reasons why Plugwise is not interesting for me:
- they force upload of *my* data to them, this while I would *buy* those devices
(if I would get the devices for semi-free or a very low price, then I would be okay-ish with this though, you don't pay for gmail either where you are the product [nope, I don't use gmail either] )
- they restrict/change license all the time, update checks etc.

In a household quite a few devices that are Internet connected do these 'update checks'.
Playstation/Xbox come into that area as well, where they also disabled a few features (ability to install OtherOS on PS) a few years back (with huge backlash from the community that went nowhere). At least they kinda have a reason: keeping multiplayer 'fair'. Note that there you also get new licenses once in a while (depending on the country you have a PSN account, as for instance .ch has not seen a PSN license change in a few years as they are not allowed to after-market change licenses here or restrict usage etc).

But these plugwise devices are in the same class as a Philips Hue; you buy it (similar pricing model: pricey), but it is completely yours. The Hue also can get software updates, and it also has a "cloud" service. But if you put the Hue on a VLAN that does not have Internet connectivity, it does not complain, it simply works and it does what you bought it for. It won't start talking to Philips on how often you turn on/off lights or when the lamp dies etc.

This is a Plugwise business model decision of course, but IMHO, especially as they are getting usage data, along with your name and other details in return, the devices then should be much cheaper, as you are the product.

Hence, for me, Plugwise is not the right tool for the job, hence I am not a customer, then again I (and likely quite a few other privacy concerned users) likely do not fall into the Plugwise customer venndiagram anyway, thus they won't care, which is fine, there are other tools that do fit the job.

Jeroen, I could not write it down better. To much companies these days are trying to "rule" the world. I'm one of a lot of people who are not gonna help them.

Reinder wrote:
Off course the current users (and especially the domotica forum users ) suppose to keep want they have. Unlike other software manufacturers we will not charge our customers for something they used to have already.
Only for new users (registered after 2011) this new structure is effective.

.

I wonder if this is legal? Wasn´t the limit 40 Plugs? I can accept if PlugWise change agrement for new buyers, but this affects those that already have invested! Anyway, a Plugwise plug still has an attractive price IF you do not need more than 25 things, but Z-Wave (and ZigBee) are getting cheaper and cheaper and 25 things is really not much today. I think that this new model will kill PlugWise which is bad for those who had invested heavily in the tecnology/brand...

I wonder if this is legal?

It is working regularly and quite fine for companies like Sony (Playstation) and various others that provide you with a "The license changed, if you want the upgrade, then click yes, otherwise no upgrade" situation....

Heck, even disabling features that where originally promised works fine that way. Only till one day you find a kid who knows a really good lawyer who wants to sink time into it.... that is the way of the world unfortunately, you are just a very small fish...

I wonder if this is legal?

The answer in the EU and if you are dealing as a consumer is definitely not. The relevant legal instrument is 'DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts'. It is mandatory for all EU member states, so in the UK it is implemented as the The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. There will be equivalent local legislation in each EU member state.

Anyway, the annex of the Directive contains a list of actions which are always unlawful, in this case the relevant one is:

(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided;

Just for completeness I thought I would include the UK Office of Fair Trading's (OFT - the regulator) guidance on 'valid reasons':

Valid reasons. Stating a valid reason why a particular change may be necessary can also help if it serves to ensure the customer is aware of, and
accepts the possibility of, the sort of change that may occur. But a reason can be considered 'valid' only if its inclusion in the contract offers real
protection to the consumer against encountering unexpected and unacceptable changes in his or her position. Vague or unclear reasons are
unlikely to be considered valid. In any case, no statement of reasons can justify making consumers pay for a product substantially different from
what they agreed to buy.

It's a shame I was just on the point of ordering plugwise equipment, but this has made me really think again.