Xanura & Miele@Home - Phase Coupler(s)

Post by **Richard** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:18 pm

Hi to all,

I have a few question's about Xanura in combination with Miele@Home. I've allready asked this question to the Miele Experts, but they don't have a fitting/satisfying answer for now (expected answer from the proffs in Germany, within 2 months). I hope you guys (and girls offcourse) have some input or some pointers for me.

We own a couple of Miele devices wich support's the Miele@Home system, (Powerline technique, devices are communicating with each other etc. etc.) we also started very small with implementing Xanura devices. (some saix1x and daix1x modules and a pmix35).

Maybe you can guess my question or 'problem'...
In our house we have a 3-phase installation, at the time of writing we don't have a phase coupler (with or without sper filters) yet (but need it very hard).

Xanura needs the FKX40 or the 'good old' FKX coupler/repeater to route the signals over all of the three phase lines. The same story is for the Miele@Home system. When i contacted Miele they told me i need a phase coupler of BUSCH JAEGER type 6984. (see: http://www.elektro-online.nl/elektro/pr ... _id=114341) to make the Miele@Home system function well over the three phase lines.

<ul>
<li>Does anybody know if the FKX40 will do the same as the BJ 6984 coupler? or is this device use a totally different (communiction) technique?</li>
<li>My heart say.. buy Xanura... it looks beter, it fits better in my existing cupboard installation. (more Eaton devices in it, and no i'm not a guy with a 'brand' fetish [:D]) and i'm sure the other xanura devices will work good with it. But will the Miele@Home work with it.?
</li>
<li>Is it correct that the FKX(40) have a build-in repeater (function) and the BJ have not? does this explain the big price difference? 300,- against 48,-</li>
<li>Does anybody else have some experiences with Miele@Home (with or without using xanura)?</li>
<li>Would it be possible to combine both of the couplers in the cupboard cabinet, so add and FKX40 (and some SFX40's) AND a BJ6984. or is this asking for problems? [:(]</li>
<li>If somebody have some additional info / references about this subject, please let me know. It's hard to find any usefull information about the Miel@Home system/technique.</li>
</ul>

Thank you for reading the above [:)]

Regards,

Richard Lichtendahl, The Netherlands - Europe (+1 GMT)

Post by **Henk** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:44 am

Richard

I had some experience in the past with Siemens home equipment they used also powerline to communicate and we solved it by placing all the devices on one phase. It sounds like Miele is using the same technique but likely not interopperability why should they ?

The question is what kind of protocol Miele is using, may be they are using the X10 protocol running at 120KHz - if that is the case the X10 phasecoupler may work. - but I doubt.

Formulate this question and ask the local Miele organisation if they wanted to forward it to their German engineering department . (likely they outsourced this development to an external comnpany)

Another way to find out is to contact the ABB people (distributor of Busch Jaeger device) likely they have technical information on this equipment locally.

Another solution I mentioned already is to place all your the Miele@Home equipment on one phase !

Or just try it ...... buy of get a phase coupler on loan either X10 based or BJ ...... The Xanura phase coupler will exchange the X10 signals between the three phases but also amplify them. The BJ device looks just like a phase coupler - like the Marmitek devices.

The next question is how to interface this Miele@Home with your home automation ..... ha ha ha again a closed system .... interoperability a long way to go in domotica

It looks like the Miele@Home has no computer interconnect only a kind of remote control device with a display. So you may pick up this RF signal translate the protocol and using RXZcom technology to put it in Homeseer.

Henk

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:04 pm

i have to order my kitchen stuff next week, miele@home looks nice, but these things above posted could cause issues.

are there any other manufactures that use a system like miele@home?

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Henk** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:24 pm

I had some experiences with Siemens equipment - this equipment came from their engineering department so i doubt if they put it on the market. Siemens got a server based on WiFi so you could communicate by a computer webbased. In case you used this technology by heating your pizza in the microwave oven everytime opening the door looking if the pizza was ok .... a message on your computer display ... Door open do you want to continue Y/N ...... so a computer was needed to prepare your pizza .. not really user friendly ...

Henk

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:32 pm

i'll ask for the miele, i have a appointment next week or so.. if this stuff is nice depending on the phase coupler thingy i might get it..

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Richard** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:29 pm

I'll think the "try" sugestion is the one to go. [:D]

The question is allready with Miele Netherlands, their technical engineer is going to germany in the first week of April, then he will ask it to it's fellow engineers. So i hope they can tell something more about it.

I was aware of the 'closed system' fact, for now i have no intentsions (read: time [:D]) of implementing it in a HA. This year there is comming a Miele@Home Gateway on the market, maybe that can open some doors for us.

Putting all devices on one phase is not really an option for me, "Washingmachine, WashDryer, Dishwasher, Hot air over, 3p Induction plate, 'wasem'kap? etc." too much power on one phase. [:(]

Richard

Post by **Snelvuur** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:19 am

http://www.vdivde-it.de/smarthome/works ... /miele.pdf ..

i also read "Miele is now joint-venturing with Busch-Jaeger, the market leader in the field of electrical installation technology." so that would be the reason why they say busch jaeger fase coupler. The gateway you are referring to is Miele@home XGW 2000

in here http://www.hea-akademie.de/inhalt/pdf/06_haering.pdf it says that the gateway is able to communicate via XML (so that would really be nice for 3rth party tools)

about the powerline, its using EIB/KNX as far as i can read off http://www.busch-jaeger.de/de/pdf/Press ... ration.pdf (for the comfort screen that works with it)

then again in http://85.214.20.63/portal/portal/vaser ... 250808.pdf you can see that they made a connection with some software towards the miel@home in there version.

thats what i could find so far..

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Richard** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:51 pm

Erik,

Thank you for providing me the type number of the gateway, now i have something else too look out for [;)] (read: read/find more info about it). The first document i was already familiar with, but the last one looks very interesting too me. Nice piece of work, at first sight it looks a very well thought model. Also... going to look for more info about that.

If they are really following the EIB/KNX standard than you would say, "it's standardized so the interoperability cant be the biggest problem?" how are you thinking about that?

Richard

Post by **Snelvuur** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:25 am

I mailed the person in the pdf, which was so kind to forward it to another person. This is the reply..

our gateway offers the current status of the Miele appliances via http-Request (over Ethernet) in a XML-container.
Basically it is also possible to control the appliances depending on the models (e. g. power-down a hob or starting a prepared washing machine).
The powerline technology ist designed for residential houses (e. g. a family house or an apartment) and therefor are no repeaters necessary. Possibly a phase coupler could be helpful (but typically not necessary).

Until now this new product (the Miele@home gateway) is not traded in the Netherlands - please contact our subsidiary in the Netherlands, if you have further questions.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Richard** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:24 am

Thanks Erik, this is very nice info.
Especially the "also possible to control" and "starting a prepared washing machine" can be very nice features.
I'll wait what the 'other' (dutch) Miele men has to say after his trip to Germany.

Keep you posted.

Richard

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:02 pm

i think i'am gonna go for miele for this, besides that they do ofcourse have nice stuff. the gateway was going for around 800 euro's on a german site, so i think there is also progress on that end. I've asked if it interferes with x10 (with xanura filters/repeaters) to the german guy again, since i called up miele @ netherlands and they didn't know anything. Person i got on the line was more saying "yes yes yes" but was meaning "i dont understand crap" if i make any progress or new things, i'll let you know too.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:49 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snelvuur
since i called up miele @ Netherlands and they didn't know anything. Person i got on the line was more saying "yes yes yes" but was meaning "i don't understand crap"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Same story here, and we already have a long history (story) with Miele. [:(] we postponed our buy of the kitchen because the 'new' Miele experience center was build, we wait a 1/2 year. (Miele people on the phone advised us to wait because the have a lot of demonstration possibility's in their new building.) We went to the new building on a Saturday (after calling them twice to confirm if Miele@home can be showed) once arrived the whole place looks stunning and the guest(s) care (coffee, introduction, candy [:D]) was really excellent!

But, you almost can guess it... when we want some demo's and information about the Miele@Home system they can't demonstrate this. [:(!]
Wanna know why.. they told us: "Miele@Home is a 'business' product and on Saturday's there aren't people available who can show/demonstrate it.". At that moment we were really speechless! A very strange action from the well respected company called Miele.

Nevertheless our visit was not totally for nothing, we saw that there was a new model of our cooking oven, so we changed our kitchen configuration to buy also the 'new' type [:D]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snelvuur
if i make any progress or new things, I'll let you know too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Same story here, I'll wait until the second week of April, after that i cut some ropes [:D] and make up my mind and decide what I'm gonna do with the M@H technology. For now we only have the dishwasher and cooking oven communicating with each other (on the same phase after changing the power cabinet (meterkast)).

Gr,

Richard

Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:53 pm

@Erik,

I you like i can provide a name of a person who's working with Miele Netherlands, he's a technical guy who's also having the title "instructor". He knows a lot about the system (IMO he knows the most about the subject of all people who's working with Miele Netherlands). This is also the person who's going to Germany first week of April.

Richard

Post by **RdP** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:29 pm

I have 2 capable Miele@home devices (Oven and a dishwasher), but I have to add some extra device (XKM2000 I thought) to let them really communicate. I was told that my oven and dishwasher are ready for Miele@home without extra costs or devices. But after installation it does not work and after a number of phonecalls I heard that I need extra (expensive) devices. I was not amushed, because these Miele@home CAPABLE devices are much more expensive allready.

I am looking forward to hear from somebody who has some experience with this system....

Post by **Snelvuur** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:29 pm

you should check the german site, they have a list of all devices that support miele@home. And you will also see device numbers that are not in use on the dutch site.. So thats a newer model then

This way i found out a bunch of newer models..

I also saw on a UK site a double oven (2 above eachother) 1 with control.. http://www.miele.co.uk/products/Features.aspx?pid=670

Didn't see that on the german or dutch site.

p.s. do you need a apointment to go see the center?

// Erik (binkey.nl)