to X10 or not to X10?

[thespriteman]

Hi There

as you can see i am an domo newbe, but i have done some reading on different sites and fora, and now i have an challange.

i just bought an house from 1969, we have to strip it completly, so that only the walls and floors are left.

all the electric wiring has to be replaced.

i saw this as an opportunity to explore Domotica (or Home automation)

the challenge is the following:
witch type of system should i use?

i have thought of the following:

KNX / EIB:
Pro: * "open Standard"
* seperate communication bus
* Fast & Reliable
* scalable
con: * verry expensive (more then 3% extra)
* not easy to adjust (need an expert)

X-10:
Pro: * relative cheap
* plug and play (for an newbe with some electrical skills)
* a lot of online information and how-to
Con: * relative slow
* max 256 devices

the other systems i am not fammiliar with.

the goals for my systems are as follows:

* energy saving
* comfort
* high Wife acceptancy factor

some stuff i was thinking of:
* standby killers (switch all unused devices of when we go to bed or leave the house)
* smart use of lights (only on when people are in the room)
* different light schemes (romantic, working, etc, etc)
* automatic closing blinds when its getting cold (or to hot)

for the heating of my house i was planning to use EVOtouch (from Honeywell)

i hope some of you experienced domotica users can give me some advise.

already thnx

[LostDreamer]

Not!....

Seriously, Most people who have used X10, have learned not to use it.

Cons:
1) The more devices you have, the less stable your network will be
2) With every new device you plug in, you might take down a bit of your X10 network (which you will only realise when devices do not respond to commands anymore)
3) You'll be buying a lot of FM10 filter's

As mentioned on the forum, I suggest to also take a look at Z-Wave.

It's wireless, has 2 way communication, works in a mesh network (so the more devices you have, the more stable the network is)


Regards,
LostDreamer

[Esteban]

If all you are after is stability with as little fiddling/hobbying as possible then go and have KNX / EIB installed. X10 (powerline) I wouldn't recommend for what you're after, and it isn't necessarily 'plug-and-play' for a whole-house installation, though if you're re-doing all the electricity that should solve some of the problems that can occur. That said there are other 'players' that you might want to check out before making a decision. Between KNX and X10 there is a whole gamma of other options.

[Alexander]

I would suggest to check some webshops to find what is on the market for a price you would pay for it.
Some will stick to X-10/A-10 on this forum, some are happy with Z-Wave.

I'd A-10, but I was disapointed because of the filters you will need. Like Pieter would say you have to check your X-10 network everytime you change something (change location of a device, radio/tv/etc). That gave me alot of headaches.
I'm using Z-Wave now, but the devices I'm using only support polling of getting the status of a device. So if I have a light switch and turn it on, my HA will notice it a few seconds later. If I would create an event based on the status of the switch, it will be delayed because of this polling mechanism.

My main question would be: Are you a computer user that want to hobby the domotica or do you want a solution where you don't want to be the expert at the end?

[Bwired]

Agree on a lot of suggestions done here.
X10 is one of the oldest Home automation way of interfacing with devices over the powerline.
A10 is an improved version, but stil you need to use the powerline for it.
And agree about the reliability if something changes in the grid, most people start with X10 without reading the requirements and then is usualy goes wrong.
In the Bwired House (3 fase) I have a very solid Powerline and my status is 99% right.
I can also work with extra status request making it almost 100%

Same goes for other products, the reliability is the same, and status is also not gureanteed. But most new products like Zwave are recently developed products and have more options etc.
Best is then tho use KNX or Home automation which is using dedicated wires to operate, but if you don't have that available this is not an option.

Also important is the protocol, zwave is a nice product but the protocol is not available, handled all very secret. If you want to program your own stuff its a mess regarding Z-wave. If you want to use Homeseer a driver is available for zwave but still not very solid with lots off problems regarding brands etc.
I would like to start with Z-wave if a good (non USB) controller is available and the protocol is clear.
So all has it ups and downs, thats why its so hard for newbies to make the right choice.
Even for most of the geeks on this forum its hard and we are all using different stuff in 1 home to have the home automation system we like

[thespriteman]

alright, thnxx for the reply's

here are some thoughts that i have now.

Zwave looks like an great system (modular, relative cheap, easy to install) but what abou al those wireless connections? i mean aren't there any problems with devices in the same frequency band?

yes i am an IT specialist, but it would be nice that when i am home from work, i don't have to "work" on my house (everyday).

what i mean is, that i think its fun and rewardable to create an HA system that does what its build for, without alot of maintanace (like an ordinairy house system)

i think i try to make som excell sheets with building prices on it for each system, that way i can try to make my mind (and my wifes) op about this.

[Digit]

People always seem to skip PLCBUS? Wake up!
I have almost 30 PLCBUS modules, 1 FM10 filter on my TV and very, very good results; it's much faster than X10, cheaper as, etc.

[thespriteman]

Alright just to start with an (personalized) comparison here is an part of my house witch I will automate.

Situation:
On the ground floor of our house we have the following layout (this is just an part of it)


Device Code Type
BG-BV-01 outdoorlamp with motion detector
BG-CD-01 junction box
BG-VL-01 2 x halogeen spots
BG-WCD-01 earthed wall socket
BG-WS-01 way switch
BG-WS-02 way / way switch (part 1)
BG-VL-02 2 x halogeen spots
BG-WS-03 way / way switch (part 2)
BG-NVL-01 emergency lightning
BG-DS-01 doorswitch
BG-WCD-02 5 way socket
BG-CD-02 junction box
BG-VL-03 Spot
BG-CD-03 junction box
BG-VL-04 light cover
BG-VT-01 ceiling fan
BG-WS-04 way switch
BG-CD-04 junction box
BG-DS-02 doorswitch
BG-VL-06 2 x halogeen spots
BG-VL-05 LED inbouwspots (8x)
BG-WCD-08 2 x earthed wall socket
BG-WCD-09 outdoor earthed wall socket

Explanation: besides the front door there is an outdoor wall socket, and an outdoor lamp with motion detector, in the entrance we have 2 light points (2x halogen spots) which can be switches on and off from the switches near the front door and the door to the living.
In the power distribution room we have an light point which will be switched on if the door is open, and above the door we have an emergency light
In the toilet we have an light point with an switch next to the door, and an fan witch run for some time after the light is off.
In the stair cupboard we have an light point which will be switched on if the door is open.
On the stairs there will be some LED spots (path lightning) witch can be switches from the bottom and top of the stairs.

Traditional approach
If I would build it in an traditional way it would be something like this:

Device Code Type Expected price
BG-BV-01 outdoorlamp with motion detector € 45,00
BG-CD-01 junction box € 2,67
BG-VL-01 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-WCD-01 earthed wall socket € 3,81
BG-WS-01 way switch € 7,91
BG-WS-02 way / way switch (part 1) € 16,42
BG-VL-02 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-WS-03 way / way switch (part 2) € 0,00
BG-NVL-01 emergency lightning € 62,48
BG-DS-01 doorswitch € 25,00
BG-WCD-02 5 way socket € 15,00
BG-CD-02 junction box € 2,67
BG-VL-03 Spot € 23,74
BG-CD-03 junction box € 2,67
BG-VL-04 light cover € 5,99
BG-VT-01 ceiling fan € 43,97
BG-WS-04 way switch € 7,91
BG-CD-04 junction box € 2,67
BG-DS-02 doorswitch € 25,00
BG-VL-06 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-VL-05 LED inbouwspots (8x) € 320,00
BG-WCD-08 2 x earthed wall socket € 6,43
BG-WCD-09 outdoor earthed wall socket € 6,55
green / yellow installation wire 2.5mm (20m) € 5,46
brown installation wire 2.5mm (15m) € 4,10
blue installation wire 2.5mm (20m) € 5,46
black installation wire 1.5mm (40m) € 7,02
Pipe's (24m) € 9,50
xvmvk installation cable (20m) € 23,07
total traditional € 785,50

Pro’s traditional electric system:
• Known building principles
• Low cost (installation) materials
• Reliable (as long there is power it works)

Con’s traditional electric system:
• Wire once never change (rigid configuration)
• Dumb configuration (no intelligence what so ever)
• No system intergration (break in detection / house status)
• A lot of wires (about 115 meters in total)

KNX-EIB approach

It is pretty difficult to do an 1 to 1 comparison between an traditional and an KNX-EIB system. I choose an starter packet with 4 complete switches and 8 actors (on / off) this includes also an powerunit, an busconnector and installation services. (for the KNX system)

Device Code Type Expected price
BG-BV-01 outdoorlamp € 45,00
BG-VL-01 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-WCD-01 earthed wall socket € 3,81
BG-VL-02 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-NVL-01 emergency lightning € 62,48
BG-DS-01 doorswitch € 25,00
BG-WCD-02 5 way socket € 15,00
BG-VL-03 Spot € 23,74
BG-VL-04 light cover € 5,99
BG-VT-01 ceiling fan € 43,97
BG-DS-02 doorswitch € 25,00
BG-VL-06 2 x halogeen spots € 35,00
BG-VL-05 LED inbouwspots (8x) € 320,00
BG-WCD-08 2 x earthed wall socket € 6,43
BG-WCD-09 outdoor earthed wall socket € 6,55
xvmvk installation cable (50m) € 57,69
EIB cable (30m) € 28,74
Gira startpakkeet € 2.493,05
KNX
total € 3.267,45

Pro’s KNX system:
· Fast
· Reliable
· Flexible(switches can be reprogrammed)
· Expandeble (extra functions can be added)
· Dedicated communication bus
· Large manufacturs witch make components
· Smart components (functions are programmable)

Con’s KNX system:
· Expensive
· Low DIY factor (almost always need an KNX specialist)
· Ready for system integration

So far the first part of this personal comparison
I will try to add X/A-10 and Z-wave tonight / tomorow

[mhn]

About Z-Wave.

I play with 3 networks at a time on my desk.

3 networks within 1½ meter on top of my WIFI accespoint with my mobile phone around and all the power consuming devices a nerd needs, no problem.

Regards
Morten

[kris2lee]

With KNX you have many options (almost too many I think).

You can use impuls sensors (traditional switches with spring or special units) with KNX input sensors.
Input sensors can be installed behind the switch (and connected by KNX cable) or into disribution cabinet. With last option you could use CAT5 cable for wiring or regular electical wiring. When you use later then you can actually drop all the automation and use the traditional approach when nessesary.
Instead you can use KNX switches connected by KNX cable.

What to prefer depends on type of application (how many inputs in one place, how far away from distribution cabinet), usability preferences, visual appearance taste, budget etc. When you compare the prices then I suggest you to create a comparision sets with your configuration. This will help you to sort out the most reasonable option when the budget is the issue.

Instead of using big names like ABB, Jung, Gira etc I would like to suggest to check smaller companies like MDT Automation. Of course first companies do have large list of different switch series so when you into that then you do not have much choice here (you can still use regular switches with input sensors of course). You can check prices on this website http://www.eibhandel.de/ MDT has really affordable switch actuators and KNX switches (they are not that fancy but do look ok). When you like dimming then you can check MDT dimmers or ones from Lingg & Janke. KNX dimmers are much more expencive than switch actuators (about 4-5 times more expencive).

There is also one big setback. When you want to tinker with your setup then you have to buy KNX configuration software named ETS (current new version is ETS4). This is around 1000 euro. There is one theoretical option how to work around this a little. As it is possible to configure KNX over the IP then it should be possible to run ETS software over the terminal connection so when you have friends with KNX setup then shared usage of the software is theoretically possible. There is also a lite version of ETS software that will cost about 100 euro but is limited to 20 devices. Depending on setup this might be also an option.

Kris

[Post-IT]

If you want to skip the KNX cabling, have a look at EIB Powernet, same principle as Xanura/A10. Unfortunately there is only one supplier of KNX/EIB Powernet devices: ABB/Busch-Jaeger. So this will limit your switch materials, although I think they are pretty nice. In my opinion the best is to have a cabled KNX system, this will give all the flexibility to use the different KNX modules from different suppliers.

About ETS, don't worry too much about it. For more details on KNX implementations search for the ETS Silver Bible, some great reading materials for KNX-noobs.

If you want the A10 stuff, I'll be ditching a huge load of Xanura devices in the next few months (DAIX12/SAIX12/PMIX/CTX).